Idk why the pictures are sideways they were upright at first

the sitting pose and the standing pose of the woman wearing all black gave me trouble any advice is welcome ,visualizing the position of the torso in angles gives me trouble .

It is hard to see position of ribcage when it is fully covered and in the black one it seems to be flat. You can sketch over the reference and then apply it to your sketch. When drawing on paper you could try to do that pose and observe how you would 'angle'. You can also hold your pencil on your reference and see which way it goes.

Hope this helps

Yeah the one sitting im mention was hard because i cant see what the body is doing i was trying to rely on looking at her calor bone but overlooked her flow of her back i was way off i place the picture over my sketch and saw she was slouching alot more than i assumed . and the all black one she looks like she slouching foward a little bit i think because of trap muscle i see more of and chin seem to be closer to her calor bone at least that what it looks like to me. Ill try the holding the pencil trick to the reference you mention ,thanks

using the body proportions (head units ) i like how fast i can set it up to make the height of a character i also throw in the cranium units in it to to find thos boney land marks this sketch is one of my characters that im trying decide her costume medieval fantasy theme looking online for references