Hi. This is a paiting which I did some two weeks ago and as I wasn't able to paint too much lately I got to come back to it and found one problem, that is really bothering me, but don't know what exactly should I do about it. It is mainly about the dragon, which in my opinion seems kinda too flat. I could use any kind of feedback on this one, but mainly about how would you guys solve the flatness of the dragon. Thanks in advance for any kind of help :smile:

Hello! Very cool painting. The solution to that problem I believe lies in how you manipulate forms with light. The reason paintings often look almost 3D and stuff is because of the way light is wrapping around the forms. It's all about giving them depth. The best way I can describe it is pretending like your making this painting out of clay. You want to think in a 3D space. For example, you have some rim lighting from the sky and stiff on the snout of the dragon. The reason it appears flat is because the light is very limited in where it reflects and illuminates, and your values are too close together on the spectrum, try to pull your darks down and bring your lights up. Also, you want to make sure the light properly falls on all the ridges, and surfaces throughout the head of the dragon. I might not be explaining it well enough (I hope that I am), but this is where doing light studies comes in handy. The light will often times define a form much more and give it the depth you're looking for. Look up on google 'lighting planes of the face' or something like that so you can see what I'm talking about. every surface has several planes, and in your painting, the values just don't define those planes well enough, essentially making the image look rather flat. Long story short, the lighting is your problem. A good way to also practice this is work in grey scale first, as that will force you to see exactly where your values are. Working solely in color can be confusing because the color tends to mask some of lighting value with different tones and it can be difficult to distinguish. I am no expert, but I have done hours and hours of research and studies on this exact topic as it was something I struggled with massively. Trust me though, conduct some studies and really try to use the light in a 3D mindset and eventually something will click and you'll get that "DING!" moment where you realize exactly what you've been doing wrong. Again, I'm no expert but I just wanted to give you the best explanation I could because I wrestled with this issue so much myself, and still do have some trouble with it. Hope this helps, and I'm really sorry if it doesn't and just confused the crap out of you haha!

to keep it short I think there just needs to be a larger contrast in values, and adding alot more dark areas with bounce light. did a quick paint over so you can look at it for yourself. also maybe change the eye of the dragon to be looking at the character might help the connection between the 2 characters

One big thing to know is grayscale and values! Try desaturating your image and seeing how the greys, whites, and blacks work. If they're scattered and messy, it'll be hard to flesh out your "voice" in the piece; essentially there's no support. Also, learning light can be key in understanding form and how to use values to communicate that.

Hi there! I really like your painting style and soft way of rendering.
I did a paintover that I think will help:

  1. I applied Contrast, Levels, Selective Color changes.
  2. I defined some scales with more light and added more rimlight.
  3. I painted in more dark places of shadows.
  4. I adjusted some of the girl's proportions.
  5. I defined some lines that you tend to blend away because you don't exactly know how to fix it (for example, the dragon's neck area).
  6. I used the Dodge Brush to make the eyes jump out more.

Try not to blend away areas that you're not sure about. Just boldly define shapes!
Keep it up :smile:

Thanks for your advice as well as your personal experience! Will keep that in mind and practice it some more.. I only started for real a month ago and before that I usually drew just pencil linearts and portraits :smile: i wanted this to be kinda challenge for me as I never worked with a little bit wider range of colors. Turned out I might not be ready to work in color yet, but it is a lot of fun and I believe I can get better at it soon. Your critique wasn't confusing at all btw, thank you :wink:

Thank you very much for taking time to do the paintover and for your advice. I can see that the darker shadow there really helps a lot, I will get back to it when I have some time and try to fix it, just have to be carefull to not lose the initial softness of the painting, which I wanted to achieve :blush: Good point with the eye btw!

Hi. Thanks for your feedback :blush: I always keep my B/W layer on top of it and check the values, but it might be I don't have the eye to recognize what needs to be pushed yet (ofcourse I need more practice, since I only just started ). I think I managed to separate the foreground, middleground and background at least. Have to do more studies of light and values. Anyway here is the B/W version of the painting Now I see, that I should have pushed the range of values a little bit more when it comes to the dragon. I'll try to fix it if I will find time this week :blush:

Hi a thank you so much for your feedback and paintover :blush:
I see, that contrast helps a lot, though I think you pushed it a little bit too much in your paintover. Also in combination with more "red-ish" color it makes the impression of the image agressive I think. And this was supposed to be the opposite. Anyway I got the point with values and will work on that while trying to keep the impression of the image in balance with my idea.
I have to disagree about the girls proportions :yum: though as I paint girls 75% of my paintings it might be just matter of personal style I guess. I kinda like to push some proportions just a tiny little bit to fit my taste. :smile:
About the neck I obviously don't know if I did it right, but it actually was more defined throughout the process, but at some point I figured out, that detailing it too much might lead the viewers focus out of my focal point, so the smoke coming out of dragons mouth was one of the last things I added and tried to blur out the left upper corner with that.
Thanks again for taking time to do the paintover and writing feedback, appreciate it and will keep it in mind :blush:

Heyy. This was a very cool painting, and I really like it! So, I saw this thread a few days ago and I didn't really want to touch on the matter, seeing that you were getting so much help. And you did receive a lot of help, not saying that the help was bad. However, I noticed a running theme in the paintovers you got, and it was mainly about contrast and and odd saturation. And interestingly, the fog/dust behind the dragon, was always removed in the paintovers above. And I thought that was kind of sad, for although it indeed did contribute to making things flag, they are kind of taking away from the piece by doing so. Now, I have taken some time to properly show a few of the key elements that made this look weird. I also avoided trying to distort the image, change the character or the dragon. And this becomes important when I'll address form.

So firstly, the main issue with your painting is color. Sit back, and look at it. It is nice, but you start seeing the same color over and over again. In fact, most of this is yellow, and what isn't yellow, is very desaturated. The weapon sheath / cloth is more saturated than the dragon! Dragons are high fantasy, right? Make that thing look fantastical!! :smiley:
So, color is an issue because it limits how you can create shapes and nice forms to some degree. Color also makes things more interesting, and are incredibly important when thinking about composition. And in this case, your colors weren't playing at composition at all. The exception is the weapon sheath, which stands out very much and brings attention to the sword. Though, in my opinion, the sword should've been closer to the character or something, as it is too far from where things are happening. So, I made the dragon look a bit more fabulous, changed the background color to a blue. Now, you might call me a hypocrite because I'm "taking away from the piece" by doing so. However, I did have a reason for this.
The bright light that the character is shining on the drakes face. This was almost lost in the original piece, and it wasn't only because of contrast. It was because of the color!

So, second point. Values. You have already taken a look at values by turning off the colors, so I don't have to say that much. However, I do have a few tips. In my paintover above, I didn't simply crank up the contrast and called it a day. I went over and tried to define some of the facial shapes more, and gave them a greater variation of both colors and values, enriching the shapes. In your original painting, things were quite tame, as the brightest lights on your drake were the same over the entire drake. So, here is where I changed yet another thing in the piece. You have some bounce light under the drakes head, and I mostly removed that because of one thing. Chiaroscuro. What is that, you ask? It is the technique used in the renaissance, by great artists. It was a technique of values, of shadow and light. This was a great time of discovery, where many things in art were discovered. Perspective, anatomy, and Chiaroscuro brought drama to the table. Yes, back then, everything was dramatic, but it worked. And I thought that your scene was a bit too colorless and simply cold, to represent what you were trying to show. A dramatic, or interesting moment. Why do I keep repeating the word dramatic? Because the entire technique was about having heavy heavy darks and having some light. Now, I haven't totally converted this piece to that, because, it'd change the entire artwork, so I hinted it, so it would at least create some mood.
So, values. Values are about form, and I think I understand why the other paintovers were mainly contrast adjustments. The forms in your painting are kind of undefined. You spent a lot of time on the eyes and cheek of the dragon, making it look like something. But the mouth area is almost without detail, and this makes it hard for us to make it look less flat. Of course, it doesn't stop us, after all, a ball still looks 3D. However, it makes it kind of boring, as there will be less interaction of light.

These were the main problems with the flatness. I decided to address that, directly, as this is kind of a big scene, and you wanted us to help you the "flatness" and nothing more. So I don't want to get into composition, anatomy, character design and such. Anyway, I hope this was helpful to some degree. This may be a few days later than you had hoped, but I wanted to reply seeing as I didn't completely agree with some of the other paintovers. They had some good points, don't get me wrong! Anyway, I really like your painting, so I'm sorry if I sounded rude in my points above!

Hey achronic, thanks for such a deep feedback I really appreciate it!
I want to react on all the things you said so I will number parts of my answer which will be linked
to the paragraphs of your text in appropriate order. :blush:
1) I appreciate you like the painting, because it is my favourite which I have done so far.
I also like what you said about the dust, because I think it was one of the "cooler" ideas in this painting.
2) Thing with my colors of choice is that I didn't want to make it too fantastical/unreal, but i deffinitely got your point in the matter, that it blends in a way that I don't like either. Wanted very smooth transitions and warmth that could add to a feeling of the piece. I tried to stick to a color theory by Sycra, where he explains how far to go with saturation of colors in order to make them look right and unite though I didn't manage to do it that good.
I like how you enhanced the light going from the hand, I will definitelly enhance that more when I get back to the painting, it could also help with defining the form of the dragons nose a little more.
3) Values were already mentioned before and I think I understand what you all mean by that. Guess it's just about time and practice. I also realized I kinda lost a lot of saturation and contrast during painting in color cause of blending things in a way I wouldn't want it and if I had more experience I would probably be able to control it more. So I am definitelly going to practice that much more :blush:
4) It is definitelly not too late, since this piece was made two weeks ago for the weekly challenge and now it just rests in my folder and I realized I kept coming back to it and was more and more unsatisfied with it and then I posted this. I won't be able to come back to it anytime soon as I am now working on something else and don't have much spare time :smile:

Thanks again for your feedback and definitelly keep it shooting at my paintings! The more cruel the better for me to actually improve! :innocent:

For now I just tried to roughly define the shapes more with a simple overlay layer which worked quite good in my opinion also added few more darker values. Will keep getting experience and hopefully will do multiple paintovers of this one during my art progress cause it could be a nice way to see if I am actually improving haha :smiley: Cya around mate! :blush:

Glad to hear that it was helpful. I want to address your comment on the color though.

It is definitely fine to try things out. I myself like Sycra and his colors, however, this thread was based the flatness on your piece. I didn't mention this when addressing color, as I felt that it was obvious; complimentary colors. So, you struggled with flatness in your piece, and I said that everything was yellow. What I did not say was that, purple and yellow are complementary colors, which directly oppose each other in theoretical color circles/wheels. This means that these colors are directly denying each other. So by making the dragon even more purple, it would help separate the dragon from the yellow light in the girls hand. And this brings me to another problem; the magic in her hand was lost in the yellowness of the scene. So I altered the background to a blue, because orange and blue are complimentary, and this was enough of a color variation to further separate the background from the light in her hands. I didn't simply make it brighter. The blue gave the magical light a better scene to shine in, for it was lost in the very yellow painting.

Hopefully this makes more sense! I guess it sounded silly that I wanted to make the dragon seem more fantastical; but generally, faces are more saturated as well, especially around the eyes. The entire point of making the dragon more saturated, was to further separate it from the background, as both were desaturated.

Alright, I understand your point better now :relaxed:
But have to ask you one more thing. Becaus if I make the background blue, it will no longer be a sundown scene. How else could I then push it if I want to keep the time of the day? Maybe give some different hue to the mountains?

It's probably still possible, try looking up some environmental artists. You'll see a lot of hue variation in the background, and you can use that, to create almost a gradient, where the background is overall yellow, but turns colder as the light fades away/we get closer to the dragon. The alternative would be to alter the coloring of the main characters, which I considered at first. An example would be that, it'd be twilight, so one end of the sky is yellow, like you wanted, and the other is blue, and the characters were in a shadow, and would get caught by blue bounce light.

Originally, I wanted to alter the magical effect on her hand to a blue, as this be just about the same fix (because the blue would almost contrast against the yellow, and the dragon is already purple, so there wouldn't be a worry there). You'd still have to crank up the saturation on the dragon, however, I didn't do this, because I felt that it would take away from your intention. Backgrounds are usually not thought through by beginners, and they often don't consider that the color might be the same all around, but foreground is often always prioritized, so I wanted to keep that same feel alive, while enhancing it.

Sure, no problem! I love giving feedback to already nice pieces.
- Colour: ah I can understand you think it feels more aggressive. I personally don't feel that, since the dragon has a very friendly expression and the red is really more pink, but I can imagine you think otherwise.
- Girl: It wasn't really about style of preference (sure, everyone likes super thin girls apparently? that's fine ^^'), but more anatomy. I think, in your version, her ribs are very smashed/not apparent and her behind way too high up if you get what I mean. Her lower arm is also too long. Compared to her legs, her body is tiny. You can adjust these things and still have her be really thin.
- Dragon neck: I don't think it will lead the viewers focus away, in my case it even distracted me that part was kind of non existent.

Have a great day :smile:

Thanks for making your points more specific Enalya, now it makes more sense to me :blush:
Still don't know what am I going to do with the color in the end, since there has been a lot of different suggestions, but we'll see. I've only just started with this coloring stuff but already read and learnd a lot about it. Hopefully I'll be more able to make it visible in my works in some time. :confused:
As for the girl the legs were what I meant when pointing towards style and when it comes to my taste that's a very specific one, cause it only involves one particular girl :smiley: Thanks for pointing out the lower arm. It trully is pretty long and I'll try to fix that and also the butt placement a little bit.
I may try to make the dust less distinct so the neck would be more seeable through it.

Thanks, you too! :sunny: :sunglasses:

I see!
Yea I am absolutely no expert on color and still studying it as well. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your work :smile:

Here is what I would do. You don't have to turn the background completely blue, just add pinks and maybe purples to what you already have to create the impression of atmospheric perspective. Also foreground need a lot more contrast. I am assuming the sun is coming by the mountains in the distance, if it is behind the figures, the more light would hit the dragon's face.

5 months later